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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Robert Perry about his book signs a

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CMP II which stands for a conjunction of

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meaningfully parallel events

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it's basically an extreme form of

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synchronicity most of our paranormal

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events that we're studying now their

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inner experiences with hopefully a

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political component but in the end they

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say they seem stiffening about our

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abilities or our ultimate nature being

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perhaps immaterial but with science or

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CMPs

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they their statements seem to be more

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about something other than us that seems

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to be you know giving us messages I'm

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just not quite sure that we can make

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that last leap because there's this

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whole idea one of time that we talked

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about and precognition but also just in

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terms of being you and I and whoever

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being co-creators of our reality so we

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get back to this idea of what's reality

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and how is reality being created and

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experienced and again what's our

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relationship to time are we in the

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future creating our reality of the past

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I mean you know we shouldn't act like

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anything's percentages yet however I

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think that there is a contemporary bias

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even among those of us who were into the

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paranormal a bias against sort of agents

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that will be on the human you know maybe

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if we take NDE seriously for instance it

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looks like that experience involves a

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certain amount of initiatives from the

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other side maybe something coming to the

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human level from the other side is part

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of how life works stay with us

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Aleksic Harrison on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to

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look at synchronicity in a new way in a

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scientific way our guest is Robert Perry

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I think the interviews pretty

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self-explanatory let's get right to it

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today we welcome back to skeptic Oh

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Robert Perry Roberts here to talk about

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his book signs a new approach to

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coincidence

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synchronicity guidance life purpose and

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God's plan and he's also here to tell us

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about a pilot study he's done about this

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work along with dr. Bruce Grayson

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that is suggestive that he really is on

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to something here so Robert thank you

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for joining me welcome back oh it's a

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great pleasure I'm very honored to be

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here I love the show and listen every

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week super in I I really appreciate

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you've made some great contributions on

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inform and on the Ansem on the comments

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section of the website I always look

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forward to reading your posts so it's

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great to have you back on so I have to

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say this book you've written it's

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amazing it's kind of startling when you

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get into it because you claim you've

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uncovered a rather remarkable new

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paranormal phenomena that you've coined

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CMP II so there's a lot here to kind of

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wrap our arms around why don't you start

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by telling us what you think you've

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uncovered here okay basically a CMP II

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which stands for a conjunction of

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meaningfully parallel events I call it a

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sign for short but because I used that

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word in a very non-standard way anybody

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else cause of those CMP II seems to be

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the the handle of choice

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it's basically an extreme form of

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synchronicity now synchronicity tends to

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be extremely subjective thing there's

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almost no rule for what constitutes a

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synchronicity but the pattern that we

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typically associate with synchronicity

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it is two events coming together and

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sharing some striking similarity the the

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classic case is Carl Jung's scarab story

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where a patient is telling him about a

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dream in which she's given a gold scarab

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and as she does a gold scarab beetle is

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tapping at the window of Jung's office

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so there you have two events her telling

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the dream the appearance of the Scarab

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and they both share one striking

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parallel which is a golden scarab right

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in and on the more just kind of

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day-to-day synchronicities that we're

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all familiar with so but you're gonna

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take this way beyond that right it's a

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much more extreme version of that basic

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pattern you still have two events that

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just happened to come together in time

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they aren't brought together

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intentionally because of their

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similarity and with this phenomenon

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there are rules about how close together

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in time didn't need to be these two

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events are still strikingly similar but

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rather than one parallel between them

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like the golden scarab they actually

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share a long list of parallels that are

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objective that any observer can see and

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on average I find they share about eight

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or nine parallels

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examples go ahead give us a couple

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they're kind of long in the telling

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because of all the similarities between

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the events but one example is last

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August I was finishing the draft of the

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paper our pilot study that you mentioned

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on CMPs and the the paper reports on us

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taking a paranormal experience and

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chronicity that's extremely difficult to

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study because of how subjects subjective

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it is and finding a way to objectively

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measure it so that we can then do an

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initial scientific study on it our study

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happened to work better than we expected

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and we were in fact able to show that

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something measurable is going on so

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within seconds of writing the last line

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of that draft I pick up Steve Volks

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Brooklyn geology which I thought was a

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great book and I began a new chapter

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that I hadn't looked ahead to and this

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chapter was on the work of dr. Andrew

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Newberg who was famous for his research

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into the brain states associated with

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spiritual experiences like meditation

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and in that chapter Volk tells the story

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of Newberg's first experiment and Volk

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says the activity of meditation has

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always been supremely difficult

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to study the experience of meditation is

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purely subjective happening only the

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practitioners mind but Newberg thought

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he may have figured out a way to study

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it scientifically with no faith based

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assumptions and he did it by measuring

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what's going on in the brain of someone

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who's in a meditative state and the

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results were everything he wanted

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they showed a measurable and logical

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correlation between the experience of

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the meditator and what's going on in his

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grain and so I I just felt that that was

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extremely similar to why I just written

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and so I wrote a list of parallels and I

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can read them to if you like sure good

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okay so in both events my paper and the

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chapter in whren geology there is some

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paranormal or spiritual experience in

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one case synchronicity in the other

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meditative experience that's been around

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for ages it's extremely it's thought to

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be extremely a supremely quote difficult

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to study and that phrases in both things

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because of how subjective it is when the

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Trulia researcher comes up with the

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latest ideas scientifically without

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faith-based assumptions and before he

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conducts the first test that were done

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number five prominent and in this test

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if someone named Robert in Newberg's

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test it was the subject that was named

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Robert number six being the first test

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the researcher is not sure it will work

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but the results are either better than

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expected in our case or quote all he

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could all he could reasonably have

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wanted in the other case number seven

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these results in some sense validate the

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experience at least showing that

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something physical and measurable is

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going on and number eight in both cases

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this is said to ultimately have bearing

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on the question of God's existence

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weight because I don't want to get too

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nitpicky on those but I think I or a

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number of people could could look at it

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and say well a couple of those are

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there's some more ordinary prosaic kind

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of explanations for why those things

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might be coincidental right that that

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that's necessarily a bad example but we

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could get into the fact that the fields

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are kind

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related the book was there you know

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there's all these things so is there

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another example you could maybe give us

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well one example is the one I begin the

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book with which is CMP that I call the

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bucket brigade and what's happening

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there is of course the miracle

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organization that I that I work for

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we're processing the issue of whether to

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basically take a departure in a new

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direction and somebody comes up with

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this image of everybody in the

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organization forming a a bucket brigade

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you know where everyone's working

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together you're passing buckets of water

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along to put a fire out and rather than

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each of us doing sort of our separate

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thing in our separate space we're all

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joined together in this really intense

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kind of common endeavor and this

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suggestion is meant to be relevant to

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figuring out the organizational

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direction that you should go right

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that's exactly right

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yeah and if we were considering a

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departure in this direction so what

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happened was at that moment we hear the

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sound of water and we we were in a

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downstairs area in the house he rushed

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into the other room and there's

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literally water pouring through the

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ceiling in a straight line it turns out

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later we found that a washing machine

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repairman had been upstairs and he'd

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turned the wrong knob and there was

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water that that came through an

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unfinished ceiling and so everybody

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exploring into action people in the

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meeting you're having people who were

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working in the office upstairs and the

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other thing to do it was those actually

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right next to where the water was

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following a stack of plastic buckets and

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so we had to essentially arrange these

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buckets in a straight line to catch the

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water until it could be turned off and

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you know and everybody's joined together

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in this and we're mopping it up and

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getting towels and everything and and of

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course it was an intense experience and

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it wasn't until we we all were done with

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it got back in the next room took a

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breath and we thought

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hey that was kind of weird we just

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formed a line of water filled buckets in

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response to an emergency in which

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everyone's pulling together in your

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organization not in their separate

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spaces it was exactly what we just been

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talking about in the meeting but we in

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this case we'd had to actually carry out

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the exact thing we've been talking about

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possibly doing great so that's a very

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concrete example they both are concrete

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examples that will give people an idea I

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think of what you're talking about

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so maybe take just a minute and tell us

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about the the methodology that you use

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for trying to understand this because

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that's what you break down in the book

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and in your paper you know that's what

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makes this a little bit different as you

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alluded to in your first example you're

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really trying to nail this down

276
00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:10,440
scientifically in a way that we can

277
00:12:15,560 --> 00:12:13,290
study it and try and understand it right

278
00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:15,570
so tell us a little bit about your

279
00:12:21,920 --> 00:12:19,650
methodology for understanding it as

280
00:12:26,120 --> 00:12:21,930
you're alluding it's very rural based

281
00:12:28,370 --> 00:12:26,130
phenomenon and I worked out the rules

282
00:12:30,790 --> 00:12:28,380
I'm still looking at the rules but to

283
00:12:34,550 --> 00:12:30,800
the extent that I have I've done it over

284
00:12:38,510 --> 00:12:34,560
35 years and recording hundreds I think

285
00:12:40,699 --> 00:12:38,520
going on a thousand examples of it the

286
00:12:42,500 --> 00:12:40,709
rules I understand them are that you

287
00:12:45,949 --> 00:12:42,510
need those two events you need to list

288
00:12:48,650 --> 00:12:45,959
the parallels the parallels then will

289
00:12:51,710 --> 00:12:48,660
come together to tell a coherent story

290
00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:51,720
there won't be a scattered list and that

291
00:12:57,800 --> 00:12:55,050
coherent story will always be aimed at a

292
00:12:59,930 --> 00:12:57,810
relevant situation in your life that

293
00:13:02,780 --> 00:12:59,940
situation will almost always be

294
00:13:05,420 --> 00:13:02,790
contained in one or both of the two

295
00:13:07,490 --> 00:13:05,430
events so one of the events might be

296
00:13:09,470 --> 00:13:07,500
fictional it might be like you mentioned

297
00:13:11,630 --> 00:13:09,480
the movie that you watched but the other

298
00:13:13,190 --> 00:13:11,640
event will usually involve a situation

299
00:13:15,500 --> 00:13:13,200
that you're wrestling with there may be

300
00:13:17,390 --> 00:13:15,510
some question involved you may have made

301
00:13:20,390 --> 00:13:17,400
a decision about that you're still

302
00:13:23,420 --> 00:13:20,400
uncertain about it will be current and

303
00:13:26,090 --> 00:13:23,430
so what happens is the parallels come

304
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:26,100
together to tell a coherent story and

305
00:13:31,830 --> 00:13:29,200
that story tends to frame

306
00:13:34,110 --> 00:13:31,840
that situation in a certain way and

307
00:13:36,470 --> 00:13:34,120
communicate a certain perspective on it

308
00:13:40,500 --> 00:13:36,480
so that's one source of the meaning

309
00:13:43,530 --> 00:13:40,510
behind this enpe the other source is a

310
00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:43,540
little bit different and it's not always

311
00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:46,450
operative but in many CMPs one of the

312
00:13:51,300 --> 00:13:49,210
events literally involves that situation

313
00:13:55,500 --> 00:13:51,310
of relevance in your life the other

314
00:13:57,630 --> 00:13:55,510
event eerily mirror is it but involves a

315
00:13:59,430 --> 00:13:57,640
whole other situation does not relevant

316
00:14:03,030 --> 00:13:59,440
for you like I said it may be a

317
00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:03,040
fictional situation now interestingly

318
00:14:09,480 --> 00:14:06,580
enough the be fictional or the non

319
00:14:14,150 --> 00:14:09,490
relevant situation will usually tend to

320
00:14:17,010 --> 00:14:14,160
contain the answers to the questions in

321
00:14:19,560 --> 00:14:17,020
the real life situation that concerns

322
00:14:22,350 --> 00:14:19,570
you so you may be wondering what to do

323
00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:22,360
in your situation in that other

324
00:14:28,740 --> 00:14:24,730
situation what to do has already been

325
00:14:30,660 --> 00:14:28,750
done and it's all resolved so so I call

326
00:14:33,300 --> 00:14:30,670
that the symbolic situation and the

327
00:14:36,420 --> 00:14:33,310
symbolic situation then offers

328
00:14:39,420 --> 00:14:36,430
commentary on the uncertainties and the

329
00:14:41,700 --> 00:14:39,430
unresolved aspects of the literal

330
00:14:43,500 --> 00:14:41,710
situation so what you do is you put

331
00:14:47,910 --> 00:14:43,510
together those two sources of meaning

332
00:14:49,650 --> 00:14:47,920
the delays of parallel frame the the

333
00:14:52,350 --> 00:14:49,660
situation looks you call the subject

334
00:14:55,530 --> 00:14:52,360
situation and then the way the symbolic

335
00:14:58,080 --> 00:14:55,540
situation frames that same situation and

336
00:15:00,210 --> 00:14:58,090
when you put those together you get a

337
00:15:02,190 --> 00:15:00,220
pretty clear message about your

338
00:15:04,080 --> 00:15:02,200
situation and it's a message that

339
00:15:06,690 --> 00:15:04,090
different interpreters who know the

340
00:15:08,070 --> 00:15:06,700
rules will read in the same way and

341
00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:08,080
that's something I've tested and

342
00:15:13,350 --> 00:15:10,690
experienced over and over can get two

343
00:15:15,630 --> 00:15:13,360
independent interpreters coming up with

344
00:15:17,820 --> 00:15:15,640
basically the same message and that's

345
00:15:20,250 --> 00:15:17,830
what makes you feel that there's some

346
00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:20,260
realness to it so you're you're coming

347
00:15:25,170 --> 00:15:21,730
along here saying okay

348
00:15:28,290 --> 00:15:25,180
if you take if you pay attention you'll

349
00:15:30,570 --> 00:15:28,300
notice that these things happen in our

350
00:15:32,460 --> 00:15:30,580
lives and then you throw this out there

351
00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:32,470
and people read it and hear about and go

352
00:15:35,970 --> 00:15:34,090
wow you know I never really quite

353
00:15:39,300 --> 00:15:35,980
noticed it but yeah there are these

354
00:15:41,670 --> 00:15:39,310
parallel events that have these a lot of

355
00:15:42,750 --> 00:15:41,680
coincidences that seem to be the

356
00:15:45,330 --> 00:15:42,760
madacorp

357
00:15:46,860 --> 00:15:45,340
towards a problem and there's some

358
00:15:49,890 --> 00:15:46,870
realness to it okay so that's really

359
00:15:51,510 --> 00:15:49,900
cool I think that you've identified this

360
00:15:54,780 --> 00:15:51,520
phenomenon and you've developed a

361
00:15:56,550 --> 00:15:54,790
methodology for trying to study it and I

362
00:15:59,130 --> 00:15:56,560
guess that would get to this study that

363
00:16:01,710 --> 00:15:59,140
you've done this pilot study how will

364
00:16:03,660 --> 00:16:01,720
you find kind of close the loop and

365
00:16:08,010 --> 00:16:03,670
really nail down that this is really

366
00:16:11,190 --> 00:16:08,020
happening yes good question well for me

367
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:11,200
you know I've seen this happen on more

368
00:16:16,710 --> 00:16:14,590
or less a weekly basis for 30 years now

369
00:16:19,620 --> 00:16:16,720
so I don't have my own doubts about it

370
00:16:21,390 --> 00:16:19,630
I've also worked with these events in

371
00:16:25,640 --> 00:16:21,400
the lives of quite a few other people

372
00:16:28,110 --> 00:16:25,650
that I know for a long time as well so

373
00:16:30,660 --> 00:16:28,120
from personal experience I know it

374
00:16:32,550 --> 00:16:30,670
happens and it's not just people you

375
00:16:34,140 --> 00:16:32,560
know very close to me it's I've read

376
00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:34,150
about these things and lives of

377
00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:36,730
strangers I had an instance a couple

378
00:16:41,670 --> 00:16:39,610
months ago where an MBE researcher who's

379
00:16:43,140 --> 00:16:41,680
actually been on your show she had one

380
00:16:45,510 --> 00:16:43,150
wee correspondent about it

381
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:45,520
she found the meaning surprising but

382
00:16:49,830 --> 00:16:47,530
really appropriate so I've seen it

383
00:16:52,230 --> 00:16:49,840
happen so many times in so many lives I

384
00:16:53,700 --> 00:16:52,240
don't have doubts about it but obviously

385
00:16:56,250 --> 00:16:53,710
that's not good enough for somebody

386
00:16:59,700 --> 00:16:56,260
who's not me so we did this pilot study

387
00:17:01,770 --> 00:16:59,710
as you mentioned in which we got 17

388
00:17:04,410 --> 00:17:01,780
participants and the whole point was to

389
00:17:07,620 --> 00:17:04,420
see it was happening in the lives of

390
00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:07,630
people out there and that was the entire

391
00:17:14,760 --> 00:17:11,050
goal of the study so we taught them how

392
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:14,770
to notice these events and they recorded

393
00:17:18,900 --> 00:17:16,720
anything that seemed like it might be

394
00:17:21,439 --> 00:17:18,910
for a period of four months sent them in

395
00:17:24,360 --> 00:17:21,449
to me and then we ran them through a

396
00:17:27,449 --> 00:17:24,370
ten-point scale that basically scores

397
00:17:32,250 --> 00:17:27,459
them to see if they if they qualify and

398
00:17:34,620 --> 00:17:32,260
we did find actually 16 genuine CMP E's

399
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:34,630
through the study which for me goes

400
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:37,510
along well it's an initial study you

401
00:17:41,850 --> 00:17:39,730
know it's a pilot study it's not going

402
00:17:44,780 --> 00:17:41,860
to I think established a phenomenon for

403
00:17:48,540 --> 00:17:44,790
anybody who has any kind of skepticism

404
00:17:51,750 --> 00:17:48,550
but at least it's a promising initial

405
00:17:54,900 --> 00:17:51,760
study suggestive of this being a general

406
00:17:56,450 --> 00:17:54,910
event that happens all over and how

407
00:17:59,730 --> 00:17:56,460
would you measure

408
00:18:02,670 --> 00:17:59,740
statistically the odds against chance of

409
00:18:06,150 --> 00:18:02,680
these events occurring how do you nail

410
00:18:08,970 --> 00:18:06,160
that part down you know I wish there was

411
00:18:11,580 --> 00:18:08,980
a way to do that I don't personally

412
00:18:14,010 --> 00:18:11,590
believe there is a way to really measure

413
00:18:16,980 --> 00:18:14,020
the probabilities involved I think it's

414
00:18:20,130 --> 00:18:16,990
too complicated I think the strength of

415
00:18:23,010 --> 00:18:20,140
it comes in in reading the lists of

416
00:18:26,070 --> 00:18:23,020
parallels and and taken as a whole

417
00:18:29,070 --> 00:18:26,080
thinking is it reasonable to suspect

418
00:18:31,740 --> 00:18:29,080
that that two events that would this

419
00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:31,750
parallel could come together purely by

420
00:18:38,010 --> 00:18:33,820
chance the other thing which to me

421
00:18:39,990 --> 00:18:38,020
really helps you know put out of

422
00:18:42,540 --> 00:18:40,000
consideration the skeptical alternative

423
00:18:45,110 --> 00:18:42,550
here is that these things in my

424
00:18:49,560 --> 00:18:45,120
experience are never one offs a

425
00:18:52,920 --> 00:18:49,570
particular CME will always be part of a

426
00:18:55,710 --> 00:18:52,930
series other CNTs will speak to the same

427
00:18:59,430 --> 00:18:55,720
situation and will say consistent things

428
00:19:01,440 --> 00:18:59,440
in fact similar CMT's will often occur

429
00:19:03,120 --> 00:19:01,450
on the exact same date in different

430
00:19:05,280 --> 00:19:03,130
years which is something I discovered

431
00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:05,290
and continues to kind of blow me away

432
00:19:11,070 --> 00:19:08,050
when it happens so that so different

433
00:19:13,110 --> 00:19:11,080
ones are intimately interrelated and

434
00:19:15,870 --> 00:19:13,120
therefore you don't have to you have to

435
00:19:18,780 --> 00:19:15,880
explain away not just one to explain

436
00:19:20,940 --> 00:19:18,790
away the whole series and at some point

437
00:19:23,790 --> 00:19:20,950
I think a reasonable a reasonable person

438
00:19:26,790 --> 00:19:23,800
stands there and says this just can't be

439
00:19:29,490 --> 00:19:26,800
chance right and we should add because I

440
00:19:31,590 --> 00:19:29,500
can maybe glossed over that but the the

441
00:19:34,830 --> 00:19:31,600
methodology that you have or that you

442
00:19:36,570 --> 00:19:34,840
applied in this study for example is

443
00:19:38,550 --> 00:19:36,580
pretty rigorous I mean there's some

444
00:19:40,230 --> 00:19:38,560
definite rules that you mentioned that

445
00:19:42,780 --> 00:19:40,240
they have to follow and they have to be

446
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:42,790
inside of a certain time frame and they

447
00:19:47,370 --> 00:19:45,130
have to follow other characteristics and

448
00:19:50,730 --> 00:19:47,380
it's pretty I think you said that you

449
00:19:52,200 --> 00:19:50,740
have an independent judge or evaluator

450
00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:52,210
who can kind of say whether they meet

451
00:19:58,440 --> 00:19:55,210
that criteria and anyone who reads the

452
00:20:00,840 --> 00:19:58,450
book signs or reads this study will see

453
00:20:03,410 --> 00:20:00,850
that it is quite objective in terms of

454
00:20:06,030 --> 00:20:03,420
how that's measured is that accurate

455
00:20:08,820 --> 00:20:06,040
yeah that's really one of the key things

456
00:20:09,660 --> 00:20:08,830
about the phenomenon I used to see

457
00:20:11,280 --> 00:20:09,670
patterns on

458
00:20:13,350 --> 00:20:11,290
kinds of events and think they were

459
00:20:15,630 --> 00:20:13,360
coincidences around every corner and and

460
00:20:17,640 --> 00:20:15,640
as I went forward

461
00:20:19,580 --> 00:20:17,650
I became personally quite skeptical

462
00:20:21,930 --> 00:20:19,590
about most synchronicities I think

463
00:20:23,550 --> 00:20:21,940
personally that most of them are us

464
00:20:25,950 --> 00:20:23,560
connecting dots that aren't connected

465
00:20:29,670 --> 00:20:25,960
that's just my personal opinion what I

466
00:20:32,220 --> 00:20:29,680
found was this phenomenon proved itself

467
00:20:34,020 --> 00:20:32,230
to me as real all the time and showed

468
00:20:36,240 --> 00:20:34,030
that it had quite specific

469
00:20:38,820 --> 00:20:36,250
characteristics and so that's how I

470
00:20:41,670 --> 00:20:38,830
built the model and built the ten-point

471
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:41,680
scale for for measuring them trying to

472
00:20:47,010 --> 00:20:44,170
capture those specific characteristics

473
00:20:50,460 --> 00:20:47,020
without them if they aren't there you

474
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:50,470
can tell this is not a real cm PE so

475
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:52,930
yeah it's very rigorous which is quite

476
00:20:56,730 --> 00:20:54,970
different than the mindset we normally

477
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:56,740
have when synchronicity but the

478
00:21:00,210 --> 00:20:58,570
advantage of course is you could have

479
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:00,220
some confidence of something real is

480
00:21:05,010 --> 00:21:01,810
going on here and we aren't just

481
00:21:08,100 --> 00:21:05,020
connecting dots in a fanciful way okay

482
00:21:10,470 --> 00:21:08,110
but you just hit on maybe the key phrase

483
00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:10,480
that I wanted to launch into is that

484
00:21:16,410 --> 00:21:13,210
something real is going on here of

485
00:21:19,890 --> 00:21:16,420
course real is a very is the ultimate

486
00:21:22,950 --> 00:21:19,900
subjective term in terms of reality and

487
00:21:26,790 --> 00:21:22,960
I guess that gets us into how should we

488
00:21:28,980 --> 00:21:26,800
understand this phenomena you and I in

489
00:21:31,380 --> 00:21:28,990
the email exchange before this we're

490
00:21:34,680 --> 00:21:31,390
both referencing you know Daryl BEM work

491
00:21:37,050 --> 00:21:34,690
of course because it gets at this issue

492
00:21:39,300 --> 00:21:37,060
of time and what is really our

493
00:21:40,710 --> 00:21:39,310
relationship with time as I was reading

494
00:21:44,130 --> 00:21:40,720
through the science thing I kept

495
00:21:47,100 --> 00:21:44,140
thinking this is precognition in some

496
00:21:50,180 --> 00:21:47,110
way so again it gets to this time thing

497
00:21:54,450 --> 00:21:50,190
and we might be experiencing time

498
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:54,460
linearly but the reality of time may it

499
00:21:59,370 --> 00:21:58,330
may not be as linear as we think so what

500
00:22:02,550 --> 00:21:59,380
are your thoughts on that

501
00:22:05,250 --> 00:22:02,560
I well actually I had a pair of

502
00:22:08,580 --> 00:22:05,260
psychologists suggest something similar

503
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:08,590
to me that this was precognition and I

504
00:22:13,140 --> 00:22:10,930
think that can work for some of the

505
00:22:17,919 --> 00:22:13,150
examples I think it gets very strange

506
00:22:22,549 --> 00:22:17,929
for some of them as well because

507
00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:22,559
in why the examples you have you have

508
00:22:25,820 --> 00:22:24,210
different people doing things at a

509
00:22:29,480 --> 00:22:25,830
distance you know somebody might send me

510
00:22:32,090 --> 00:22:29,490
an email in this case you know who's

511
00:22:33,650 --> 00:22:32,100
having the precognition there just

512
00:22:36,799 --> 00:22:33,660
there's a lot of examples where I think

513
00:22:39,010 --> 00:22:36,809
that doesn't work that well and what I

514
00:22:41,120 --> 00:22:39,020
want to say about trying to explain this

515
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:41,130
and obviously cried out for an

516
00:22:45,110 --> 00:22:43,530
explanation is that in our attempt to

517
00:22:48,650 --> 00:22:45,120
explain it I think there's two things

518
00:22:50,750 --> 00:22:48,660
that we should keep in mind one is that

519
00:22:53,030 --> 00:22:50,760
we shouldn't just cherry-pick certain

520
00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:53,040
elements of it and try to explain those

521
00:22:58,669 --> 00:22:55,650
and ignore the rest and then the other

522
00:23:01,220 --> 00:22:58,679
is that we shouldn't come to it I think

523
00:23:03,980 --> 00:23:01,230
with the constraints of our particular

524
00:23:06,530 --> 00:23:03,990
worldview and say well only explanations

525
00:23:08,299 --> 00:23:06,540
within that worldview are ok here I

526
00:23:11,390 --> 00:23:08,309
think we should look at the phenomenon

527
00:23:13,760 --> 00:23:11,400
as a whole and see what the phenomena

528
00:23:17,330 --> 00:23:13,770
itself suggests in terms of you know

529
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:17,340
best explanations and when I look at it

530
00:23:25,690 --> 00:23:21,600
as a whole what I see is it looks like

531
00:23:30,350 --> 00:23:25,700
events are being somehow pulled together

532
00:23:33,580 --> 00:23:30,360
in in highly orchestrated ways and in

533
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:33,590
ways that appear to be structured as

534
00:23:39,530 --> 00:23:36,210
communications these things always

535
00:23:41,720 --> 00:23:39,540
highlight some situation in your life

536
00:23:43,340 --> 00:23:41,730
that you're dealing with and then they

537
00:23:45,890 --> 00:23:43,350
provide a perspective on it a

538
00:23:48,380 --> 00:23:45,900
perspective that very often is targeted

539
00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:48,390
or seems to be targeted at the very

540
00:23:53,590 --> 00:23:51,090
things that you're wrestling with so

541
00:23:57,950 --> 00:23:53,600
these things look like they are

542
00:24:00,770 --> 00:23:57,960
communications or structured as that so

543
00:24:05,240 --> 00:24:00,780
in my mind an explanation would have to

544
00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:05,250
ideally honor that basic design of the

545
00:24:10,000 --> 00:24:07,890
phenomenon itself so even now Robert

546
00:24:12,650 --> 00:24:10,010
you're creeping into this more

547
00:24:14,419 --> 00:24:12,660
controversial aspect of this and it's in

548
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:14,429
the title of the book and it's also in

549
00:24:20,180 --> 00:24:16,410
the chapter in the book and that's this

550
00:24:23,180 --> 00:24:20,190
idea of life's purpose and gods the G

551
00:24:26,030 --> 00:24:23,190
words plan you know the last time

552
00:24:27,620 --> 00:24:26,040
whenever I bring up the issue of God and

553
00:24:30,409 --> 00:24:27,630
I usually talk about God as a

554
00:24:31,630 --> 00:24:30,419
placeholder for this idea of some

555
00:24:33,460 --> 00:24:31,640
organized

556
00:24:36,980 --> 00:24:33,470
consciousness some higher-level

557
00:24:38,900 --> 00:24:36,990
organized consciousness I get a lot of

558
00:24:41,540 --> 00:24:38,910
pushback a lot of people are resistant

559
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:41,550
to that a lot of people feel very burned

560
00:24:47,410 --> 00:24:44,730
by Christianity is really what it

561
00:24:50,810 --> 00:24:47,420
usually comes down to or some other

562
00:24:53,090 --> 00:24:50,820
religion but it's usually this idea that

563
00:24:56,120 --> 00:24:53,100
hey I was slammed with this Christian

564
00:24:58,160 --> 00:24:56,130
crap when I was a kid and it took me 20

565
00:25:00,830 --> 00:24:58,170
years of therapy to overcome it please

566
00:25:01,400 --> 00:25:00,840
don't try and shove God back down my

567
00:25:04,910 --> 00:25:01,410
throat

568
00:25:07,130 --> 00:25:04,920
that's the pushback I get and I have to

569
00:25:09,380 --> 00:25:07,140
say there's a little bit of that that I

570
00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:09,390
felt here I felt the need to push back a

571
00:25:14,210 --> 00:25:11,970
little bit - I mean can they really make

572
00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:14,220
that leap that you're making and saying

573
00:25:19,310 --> 00:25:17,010
that because you see some kind of a

574
00:25:22,190 --> 00:25:19,320
relationship between the person that's

575
00:25:24,470 --> 00:25:22,200
experiencing the coincidence and some

576
00:25:26,630 --> 00:25:24,480
kind of structure information message in

577
00:25:29,060 --> 00:25:26,640
what they're experiencing it can we

578
00:25:33,140 --> 00:25:29,070
really put God right in the middle of

579
00:25:36,470 --> 00:25:33,150
that well I think I think we don't have

580
00:25:39,770 --> 00:25:36,480
to you know for me there's a phenomenon

581
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:39,780
here that needs to be explained and for

582
00:25:45,020 --> 00:25:42,090
most of my time with it I didn't see

583
00:25:47,330 --> 00:25:45,030
this coming from God my interest was

584
00:25:49,340 --> 00:25:47,340
really more practical I was just willing

585
00:25:51,410 --> 00:25:49,350
to work with it get the benefits of it

586
00:25:54,140 --> 00:25:51,420
and I kind of assumed it was coming from

587
00:25:57,380 --> 00:25:54,150
some wise place in my unconscious that

588
00:25:59,570 --> 00:25:57,390
could somehow maybe you know draw vents

589
00:26:01,430 --> 00:25:59,580
together to get a message across to me

590
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:01,440
and I still think that's a reasonable

591
00:26:07,100 --> 00:26:04,890
explanation there's a couple of reasons

592
00:26:11,810 --> 00:26:07,110
why I've done in the god direction

593
00:26:15,410 --> 00:26:11,820
personally one is that I started to

594
00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:15,420
notice that if different people had CMT

595
00:26:19,730 --> 00:26:17,610
ease about the same situation even

596
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:19,740
people who were living you know hundreds

597
00:26:24,800 --> 00:26:22,890
of thousands of miles apart there CMP

598
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:24,810
ease would be consistent with each other

599
00:26:30,410 --> 00:26:27,570
and sometimes quite minutely related as

600
00:26:32,900 --> 00:26:30,420
if they were coming from the same source

601
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:32,910
so I started to think well whatever this

602
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:35,970
source is it clearly transcends the

603
00:26:41,180 --> 00:26:38,610
individual mind in which case maybe we

604
00:26:43,670 --> 00:26:41,190
can posit you know a collective

605
00:26:44,510 --> 00:26:43,680
unconscious or something that is the

606
00:26:45,950 --> 00:26:44,520
source of the

607
00:26:48,350 --> 00:26:45,960
and I think that would be consistent

608
00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:48,360
with the data as well let me nail that

609
00:26:54,580 --> 00:26:51,170
down a minute so a collective

610
00:26:57,830 --> 00:26:54,590
unconscious a collective consciousness

611
00:27:01,430 --> 00:26:57,840
would fit here you and and then I guess

612
00:27:04,730 --> 00:27:01,440
the question related that is what is God

613
00:27:07,940 --> 00:27:04,740
for you in that continuum if you will of

614
00:27:11,030 --> 00:27:07,950
if you're falling back to the collective

615
00:27:13,700 --> 00:27:11,040
consciousness then what is the

616
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:13,710
relationship between your understanding

617
00:27:20,540 --> 00:27:15,810
of God and your understanding of this

618
00:27:23,350 --> 00:27:20,550
collective consciousness well I don't I

619
00:27:26,840 --> 00:27:23,360
don't really personally think that that

620
00:27:29,480 --> 00:27:26,850
collective unconscious explanation the

621
00:27:32,270 --> 00:27:29,490
thing behind us I'm saying I think it's

622
00:27:36,260 --> 00:27:32,280
a race after interpretation that I think

623
00:27:40,070 --> 00:27:36,270
is reasonable I see it as coming from

624
00:27:42,080 --> 00:27:40,080
God my idea of God is very much what

625
00:27:46,220 --> 00:27:42,090
people experience for instance in

626
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:46,230
near-death experiences so I you know I I

627
00:27:53,390 --> 00:27:50,010
see something I see God is very much you

628
00:27:55,790 --> 00:27:53,400
know some kind of a being who's maybe

629
00:27:58,580 --> 00:27:55,800
boundless and formless but still you

630
00:28:01,700 --> 00:27:58,590
know alive and in some sense personal I

631
00:28:03,980 --> 00:28:01,710
don't think that s required at all to

632
00:28:06,170 --> 00:28:03,990
work with this phenomenon to explore it

633
00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:06,180
I think that there's all kinds of

634
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:08,610
possible explanations but there's two

635
00:28:13,250 --> 00:28:10,890
things like you come back to one is the

636
00:28:16,250 --> 00:28:13,260
phenomenon itself pushes me in the

637
00:28:18,290 --> 00:28:16,260
direction of something godlike maybe

638
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:18,300
it's something that falls short of being

639
00:28:23,060 --> 00:28:20,610
what we would call God but the phenomena

640
00:28:26,660 --> 00:28:23,070
itself I think suggests something

641
00:28:28,670 --> 00:28:26,670
godlike number two a lot of what's

642
00:28:32,230 --> 00:28:28,680
pushed me in the extreme direction I've

643
00:28:35,210 --> 00:28:32,240
gone in is the CMT's themselves I

644
00:28:38,690 --> 00:28:35,220
started to get them about about 13 years

645
00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:38,700
ago I started to get ones that clearly

646
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:41,070
were saying they came from God that the

647
00:28:45,980 --> 00:28:42,990
phenomena itself comes from God and

648
00:28:49,580 --> 00:28:45,990
because I built up a trust with with

649
00:28:50,420 --> 00:28:49,590
these instances over many years I I kind

650
00:28:52,760 --> 00:28:50,430
of went with it

651
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:52,770
hey Robert give me an example there nail

652
00:28:57,470 --> 00:28:54,330
that down for me what do you mean you

653
00:28:58,460 --> 00:28:57,480
had a direct experience or message that

654
00:29:01,340 --> 00:28:58,470
this was coming from

655
00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:01,350
God you know as I said the CMT ease when

656
00:29:05,320 --> 00:29:03,090
you read it according to the rules they

657
00:29:09,110 --> 00:29:05,330
end up communicating certain messages I

658
00:29:12,470 --> 00:29:09,120
started to get the occasional CME whose

659
00:29:13,909 --> 00:29:12,480
message was actually they were talking

660
00:29:15,619 --> 00:29:13,919
about me writing the book that I

661
00:29:18,529 --> 00:29:15,629
eventually wrote many years later and

662
00:29:21,799 --> 00:29:18,539
they kept saying essentially emphasize

663
00:29:23,570 --> 00:29:21,809
in the book that this comes from God and

664
00:29:25,899 --> 00:29:23,580
if they didn't wanted me to end the book

665
00:29:27,769 --> 00:29:25,909
on that no I know it sounds like an

666
00:29:29,180 --> 00:29:27,779
anthropomorphizing them but that's just

667
00:29:32,629 --> 00:29:29,190
how I experienced them they're they're

668
00:29:35,539 --> 00:29:32,639
giving me messages so I I do relate

669
00:29:38,119 --> 00:29:35,549
those in the book one of them was where

670
00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:38,129
I was writing to somebody a long account

671
00:29:42,499 --> 00:29:40,490
of my understanding of the phenomenon

672
00:29:46,850 --> 00:29:42,509
you know there was their first encounter

673
00:29:48,590 --> 00:29:46,860
with it and I was talking about how you

674
00:29:51,440 --> 00:29:48,600
know it's a strange thing because it

675
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:51,450
looks like you know in a skeptical age

676
00:29:56,419 --> 00:29:53,370
it looks like here is something that

677
00:29:59,619 --> 00:29:56,429
that seems to come from from God a God's

678
00:30:02,419 --> 00:29:59,629
plan or something in that direction and

679
00:30:04,330 --> 00:30:02,429
you know it seems like it's God speaking

680
00:30:07,070 --> 00:30:04,340
to us even though we aren't listening

681
00:30:09,710 --> 00:30:07,080
and right after that I ended up watching

682
00:30:11,869 --> 00:30:09,720
a TV program I used to be into the

683
00:30:16,369 --> 00:30:11,879
x-files and so as I have to show the

684
00:30:18,470 --> 00:30:16,379
x-files in which the show which I caught

685
00:30:22,009 --> 00:30:18,480
the very tail end up concludes on an

686
00:30:23,619 --> 00:30:22,019
uncannily similar note the one of the

687
00:30:25,789 --> 00:30:23,629
main characters is and experiencing

688
00:30:29,330 --> 00:30:25,799
amazing a dumps over the course of the

689
00:30:31,009 --> 00:30:29,340
show and she ends up feeling like you

690
00:30:34,580 --> 00:30:31,019
know God is speaking and no one's

691
00:30:36,169 --> 00:30:34,590
listening so it was things like that the

692
00:30:39,049 --> 00:30:36,179
started to push me in a direction that I

693
00:30:41,899 --> 00:30:39,059
actually hadn't gone in quite yet and

694
00:30:44,419 --> 00:30:41,909
when I did do what they said and make

695
00:30:46,100 --> 00:30:44,429
that the ending a book I had as a

696
00:30:48,590 --> 00:30:46,110
confirmation of that one of the most

697
00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:48,600
spectacular CMPs I've ever had there are

698
00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:50,970
about 30 parallels which I made the

699
00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:55,049
epilogue of the book eventually and so

700
00:31:00,230 --> 00:30:57,330
those those actually helped take me

701
00:31:02,659 --> 00:31:00,240
there even though I'm adamant that you

702
00:31:04,970 --> 00:31:02,669
don't need to start there or even end

703
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:04,980
there to look with the phenomena and

704
00:31:08,509 --> 00:31:06,210
think something's happening

705
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:08,519
tell us how that's informed your

706
00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:12,210
understanding of God on a personal base

707
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:15,150
what will you take away big picture wise

708
00:31:22,010 --> 00:31:19,050
in terms of what this means about God

709
00:31:24,020 --> 00:31:22,020
and how God is involved in your life

710
00:31:27,920 --> 00:31:24,030
that's an interesting question not sure

711
00:31:31,910 --> 00:31:27,930
that asked that before the background is

712
00:31:35,720 --> 00:31:31,920
I I do I I do really take these

713
00:31:37,550 --> 00:31:35,730
seriously as the most important the most

714
00:31:39,470 --> 00:31:37,560
authoritative influence in my own

715
00:31:40,940 --> 00:31:39,480
personal decision-making they don't

716
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:40,950
happen on command they don't happen

717
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:43,410
every day but when they do happen I take

718
00:31:48,590 --> 00:31:46,170
them very seriously and to a large

719
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:48,600
degree I live my life by them they have

720
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:50,370
proven themselves very trustworthy

721
00:31:55,460 --> 00:31:52,410
that's why actually I'm living in

722
00:31:59,330 --> 00:31:55,470
England now as I had the MPs telling you

723
00:32:02,380 --> 00:31:59,340
to move here with my with my family so

724
00:32:04,970 --> 00:32:02,390
as a result of their influence I

725
00:32:07,940 --> 00:32:04,980
basically feel like there is something

726
00:32:10,100 --> 00:32:07,950
which is usually quite anonymous that

727
00:32:14,420 --> 00:32:10,110
there's something that is advising me

728
00:32:16,910 --> 00:32:14,430
that wants me to move in in positive

729
00:32:19,300 --> 00:32:16,920
directions that end up being healthy and

730
00:32:22,760 --> 00:32:19,310
good for me and for those around me

731
00:32:25,430 --> 00:32:22,770
whatever this is is concerned about

732
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:25,440
small situations in my life I was told

733
00:32:31,190 --> 00:32:27,570
after 25 years ago back to see the

734
00:32:34,250 --> 00:32:31,200
dentist and large ones my spiritual

735
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:34,260
development my work my my close

736
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:37,290
relationships whatever this is seems

737
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:39,930
really concerned about every aspect of

738
00:32:45,140 --> 00:32:42,570
my life and really intent on giving me

739
00:32:48,530 --> 00:32:45,150
clarity and and vision for those

740
00:32:52,820 --> 00:32:48,540
different areas in my life and so a lot

741
00:32:55,100 --> 00:32:52,830
of my own tangible sense of God comes

742
00:32:57,800 --> 00:32:55,110
from the feeling that there's just

743
00:33:00,920 --> 00:32:57,810
something looking out for me and wanting

744
00:33:03,710 --> 00:33:00,930
to impart to me the clarity and the

745
00:33:06,770 --> 00:33:03,720
wisdom and sometimes even the foresight

746
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:06,780
that can help me along my way so I end

747
00:33:11,390 --> 00:33:09,210
up actually feeling very cared for so

748
00:33:14,390 --> 00:33:11,400
where do you go from here Robert where

749
00:33:16,370 --> 00:33:14,400
do you go with the research with the

750
00:33:19,070 --> 00:33:16,380
results of the pilot study and where

751
00:33:23,330 --> 00:33:19,080
would you like to see the the research

752
00:33:25,130 --> 00:33:23,340
into the phenomena go yeah I I really

753
00:33:28,910 --> 00:33:25,140
want to see this go

754
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:28,920
somewhere the CMT's themselves daily

755
00:33:33,980 --> 00:33:30,840
think this is going to be some kind of

756
00:33:36,230 --> 00:33:33,990
field of inquiry one day along the lines

757
00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:36,240
of near-death studies I think we're

758
00:33:39,710 --> 00:33:38,010
quite a long ways off from that to be

759
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:39,720
honest but they have very long range

760
00:33:44,390 --> 00:33:41,970
point of view so I'm not going to be

761
00:33:46,940 --> 00:33:44,400
surprised if that happens I think that

762
00:33:49,700 --> 00:33:46,950
the next step is is just to keep

763
00:33:53,440 --> 00:33:49,710
studying it we've got a I think this

764
00:33:56,180 --> 00:33:53,450
time get a funded study week that we can

765
00:33:58,280 --> 00:33:56,190
construct very carefully using we learn

766
00:34:01,460 --> 00:33:58,290
from the first study has very tight

767
00:34:03,110 --> 00:34:01,470
controls deal with questions like

768
00:34:05,000 --> 00:34:03,120
independence which is one of the big

769
00:34:10,850 --> 00:34:05,010
Bugaboo here were the events really

770
00:34:13,720 --> 00:34:10,860
independent and just do it more

771
00:34:18,470 --> 00:34:13,730
carefully you know more independent

772
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:18,480
scores and observers and just slowly I

773
00:34:22,669 --> 00:34:20,640
think try to push it out there my

774
00:34:24,889 --> 00:34:22,679
experience is that this is such a

775
00:34:27,590 --> 00:34:24,899
different sort of phenomenon than we're

776
00:34:29,090 --> 00:34:27,600
currently studying and different than

777
00:34:30,770 --> 00:34:29,100
how we think of synchronicity that I

778
00:34:32,300 --> 00:34:30,780
think people have a hard time just

779
00:34:36,470 --> 00:34:32,310
getting it to kind of click into place

780
00:34:38,750 --> 00:34:36,480
in their brains and along those lines do

781
00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:38,760
you have any thoughts on why certain

782
00:34:43,490 --> 00:34:41,610
people are experiencing CMP ease and

783
00:34:45,919 --> 00:34:43,500
others are not or anything like that

784
00:34:48,620 --> 00:34:45,929
that's obviously a really important

785
00:34:52,149 --> 00:34:48,630
question and it's clear to me that

786
00:34:54,740 --> 00:34:52,159
different people my wife and I call them

787
00:34:57,710 --> 00:34:54,750
sign magnets different people are real

788
00:35:01,340 --> 00:34:57,720
sign magnets for some reason I don't

789
00:35:03,470 --> 00:35:01,350
know why I get a great deal of them more

790
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:03,480
than other people I know I don't know

791
00:35:08,180 --> 00:35:05,970
why it is I'm not a psychic person I'm

792
00:35:10,190 --> 00:35:08,190
not a person given to spiritual

793
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:10,200
experiences I mean I'm a really classic

794
00:35:17,330 --> 00:35:14,160
left brain guy but I'm getting more and

795
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:17,340
some seem to never get them the woman in

796
00:35:22,400 --> 00:35:20,160
our study there's a one woman I was 17

797
00:35:24,500 --> 00:35:22,410
people who got virtually a third of all

798
00:35:27,950 --> 00:35:24,510
the recorded examples that we had and

799
00:35:30,710 --> 00:35:27,960
she is an end a year and I somehow

800
00:35:32,090 --> 00:35:30,720
connected with that but she and I have

801
00:35:33,770 --> 00:35:32,100
very different kinds of people she's

802
00:35:36,770 --> 00:35:33,780
totally right right I'm totally left

803
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:36,780
brain so I'm not really sure what

804
00:35:41,220 --> 00:35:38,450
attracts them to some

805
00:35:45,549 --> 00:35:41,230
and not others it's interesting just to

806
00:35:47,079 --> 00:35:45,559
kind of speculate the the NDE that you

807
00:35:50,140 --> 00:35:47,089
mentioned you know opening people up

808
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:50,150
psychically I'd be interested in people

809
00:35:56,859 --> 00:35:53,150
who experience precognitive dreams or

810
00:35:59,410 --> 00:35:56,869
other kind of paranormal experiences

811
00:36:01,780 --> 00:35:59,420
what their relationship is or frequency

812
00:36:03,819 --> 00:36:01,790
of having these sign experiences there's

813
00:36:06,190 --> 00:36:03,829
all sorts of interesting questions it

814
00:36:08,730 --> 00:36:06,200
certainly is refreshing that you're

815
00:36:11,770 --> 00:36:08,740
approaching this from both a personal

816
00:36:14,200 --> 00:36:11,780
spiritual aspect which i think is very

817
00:36:17,500 --> 00:36:14,210
brave on your part and at the same time

818
00:36:19,930 --> 00:36:17,510
pursuing it on a parallel path that asks

819
00:36:22,329 --> 00:36:19,940
these questions scientifically and I

820
00:36:24,849 --> 00:36:22,339
think there's there's some great great

821
00:36:27,010 --> 00:36:24,859
work to be done there too so it's it's

822
00:36:29,109 --> 00:36:27,020
just really great and I hope people dig

823
00:36:32,859 --> 00:36:29,119
into it and I'm sure that this will

824
00:36:34,210 --> 00:36:32,869
generate a lot more CNP ease from people

825
00:36:38,500 --> 00:36:34,220
I think it's the kind of thing that once

826
00:36:40,660 --> 00:36:38,510
you hear about it you see them much more

827
00:36:42,039 --> 00:36:40,670
than you would then before when you

828
00:36:43,990 --> 00:36:42,049
didn't know about it I'm sure you have

829
00:36:46,120 --> 00:36:44,000
plenty of stories of that right it's

830
00:36:50,530 --> 00:36:46,130
true and they are very easy to overlook

831
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:50,540
because some are obvious but some for

832
00:36:53,620 --> 00:36:52,160
some you have to have a kind of a

833
00:36:55,870 --> 00:36:53,630
pattern state of mind where you're

834
00:36:58,450 --> 00:36:55,880
looking for not a single striking thing

835
00:37:01,599 --> 00:36:58,460
but for that whole pattern and those can

836
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:01,609
blow by very easily I like the the

837
00:37:05,200 --> 00:37:03,290
forward to the book because I felt the

838
00:37:07,299 --> 00:37:05,210
same way you know there's this at first

839
00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:07,309
there's this kind of desire to push

840
00:37:12,339 --> 00:37:09,530
against it and go but then the more you

841
00:37:14,140 --> 00:37:12,349
dig into it I I think it's it's rather

842
00:37:16,930 --> 00:37:14,150
remarkable that you've kind of

843
00:37:19,180 --> 00:37:16,940
identified this little paranormal

844
00:37:21,309 --> 00:37:19,190
phenomena that I'm sure other people

845
00:37:23,349 --> 00:37:21,319
have kind of seen but no one's really

846
00:37:26,170 --> 00:37:23,359
nailed down in the way that you have so

847
00:37:28,660 --> 00:37:26,180
that's most of our paranormal events

848
00:37:30,700 --> 00:37:28,670
that we're studying now their inner

849
00:37:33,460 --> 00:37:30,710
experiences with hopefully a political

850
00:37:36,099 --> 00:37:33,470
component but in the end they say they

851
00:37:38,549 --> 00:37:36,109
seem stiffening about our abilities or

852
00:37:41,559 --> 00:37:38,559
our ultimate nature being perhaps

853
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:41,569
immaterial but with science or CMP ease

854
00:37:46,750 --> 00:37:44,000
they their statements seem to be more

855
00:37:49,900 --> 00:37:46,760
about something other than us that seems

856
00:37:52,690 --> 00:37:49,910
to be you know giving us messages right

857
00:37:56,650 --> 00:37:52,700
and it's interesting what you just said

858
00:37:58,059 --> 00:37:56,660
about the empirical aspect of it let's

859
00:37:59,620 --> 00:37:58,069
explore that a little bit further and

860
00:38:03,130 --> 00:37:59,630
maybe I'll roll this back into the show

861
00:38:05,589 --> 00:38:03,140
but tell us how you think there's a

862
00:38:08,980 --> 00:38:05,599
little bit of a difference there in how

863
00:38:12,970 --> 00:38:08,990
we experience this as opposed to like an

864
00:38:15,490 --> 00:38:12,980
out-of-body experience well you know

865
00:38:19,059 --> 00:38:15,500
with an out-of-body experience that is

866
00:38:21,130 --> 00:38:19,069
an internal experience that at best you

867
00:38:22,720 --> 00:38:21,140
know have some political component to it

868
00:38:24,670 --> 00:38:22,730
you see something out of the body that

869
00:38:26,859 --> 00:38:24,680
you couldn't have seen if you were in

870
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:26,869
the body but fundamentally it's a

871
00:38:33,549 --> 00:38:28,940
subjective you know into interior

872
00:38:35,109 --> 00:38:33,559
experience with cn Pease one of the

873
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:35,119
things that makes them so different from

874
00:38:39,670 --> 00:38:37,250
other things that we're studying in

875
00:38:43,270 --> 00:38:39,680
terms of the paranormal if these are

876
00:38:45,039 --> 00:38:43,280
objectives there's a cool event just to

877
00:38:47,620 --> 00:38:45,049
nail that down a little bit so when

878
00:38:49,660 --> 00:38:47,630
you're in the water brigade you're in

879
00:38:52,420 --> 00:38:49,670
the water brigade with ten other people

880
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:52,430
or five hover many there are and they

881
00:38:56,950 --> 00:38:54,410
can all right say yes that really

882
00:39:00,819 --> 00:38:56,960
happened when do you have the experience

883
00:39:04,870 --> 00:39:00,829
of being inside the Simpsons episode of

884
00:39:07,240 --> 00:39:04,880
the Krusty the Klown episode then every

885
00:39:09,789 --> 00:39:07,250
millions of people can watch the Krusty

886
00:39:11,170 --> 00:39:09,799
the Klown episode and say yeah that

887
00:39:13,750 --> 00:39:11,180
really happened and they could have

888
00:39:15,760 --> 00:39:13,760
videotaped you out at the park and said

889
00:39:17,950 --> 00:39:15,770
yeah that same thing happened so there

890
00:39:20,620 --> 00:39:17,960
is this this difference there isn't

891
00:39:22,960 --> 00:39:20,630
there right and a lot of the events of

892
00:39:25,690 --> 00:39:22,970
CMT's I found through going back and

893
00:39:28,720 --> 00:39:25,700
checking are recorded their emails

894
00:39:30,490 --> 00:39:28,730
they're there a television show they're

895
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:30,500
things that don't rely on people's

896
00:39:38,710 --> 00:39:32,930
reporting so here we have objective

897
00:39:41,109 --> 00:39:38,720
often recorded physical events that you

898
00:39:43,930 --> 00:39:41,119
know we have to explain how they came

899
00:39:47,079 --> 00:39:43,940
together while being so unbelievably

900
00:39:49,780 --> 00:39:47,089
similar and so in the end that the you

901
00:39:51,490 --> 00:39:49,790
know the the import of the phenomenon is

902
00:39:53,349 --> 00:39:51,500
a bit different than with something like

903
00:39:57,970 --> 00:39:53,359
an out-of-body experience or an NDE

904
00:40:00,910 --> 00:39:57,980
or past life memory where those things

905
00:40:03,910 --> 00:40:00,920
are suggestive of unusual human

906
00:40:06,329 --> 00:40:03,920
abilities or suggestive of perhaps you

907
00:40:08,819 --> 00:40:06,339
know our ultimate nature as humans maybe

908
00:40:11,880 --> 00:40:08,829
in material and could survive death this

909
00:40:13,799 --> 00:40:11,890
phenomenon instead is suggestive it

910
00:40:16,469 --> 00:40:13,809
seems to me of something other than us

911
00:40:18,569 --> 00:40:16,479
something that seems could be sending us

912
00:40:20,039 --> 00:40:18,579
messages whether that be God or

913
00:40:21,989 --> 00:40:20,049
something else like a collective

914
00:40:24,660 --> 00:40:21,999
unconscious or you know who knows you

915
00:40:26,579 --> 00:40:24,670
know aliens whatever I'm just not quite

916
00:40:28,799 --> 00:40:26,589
sure that we can make that last leap

917
00:40:30,299 --> 00:40:28,809
because there's this whole idea one of

918
00:40:32,910 --> 00:40:30,309
time that we talked about in

919
00:40:36,559 --> 00:40:32,920
precognition but also just in terms of

920
00:40:39,269 --> 00:40:36,569
being you and I and whoever being

921
00:40:40,979 --> 00:40:39,279
co-creators of our reality so we get

922
00:40:44,179 --> 00:40:40,989
back to this idea of what's reality and

923
00:40:46,229 --> 00:40:44,189
how is reality being created and

924
00:40:48,329 --> 00:40:46,239
experienced and again what's our

925
00:40:50,489 --> 00:40:48,339
relationship to time are we in the

926
00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:50,499
future creating our reality of the past

927
00:40:54,749 --> 00:40:53,170
I mean but I do get your point you know

928
00:40:57,719 --> 00:40:54,759
we shouldn't act like anything's

929
00:41:00,929 --> 00:40:57,729
pursuing it as yet however I think that

930
00:41:02,459 --> 00:41:00,939
there is a contemporary bias even among

931
00:41:05,849 --> 00:41:02,469
those of us who were into the paranormal

932
00:41:10,499 --> 00:41:05,859
a bias against sort of agents that are

933
00:41:12,809 --> 00:41:10,509
beyond the human you know maybe if we

934
00:41:15,839 --> 00:41:12,819
take NDE seriously for instance it looks

935
00:41:17,819 --> 00:41:15,849
like that experience involves a certain

936
00:41:20,729 --> 00:41:17,829
amount of initiatives from the other

937
00:41:22,859 --> 00:41:20,739
side maybe something coming to the human

938
00:41:26,370 --> 00:41:22,869
level from the other side is part of how

939
00:41:28,499 --> 00:41:26,380
that works great well the book again is

940
00:41:30,539 --> 00:41:28,509
signs we'll have a link to it up here on

941
00:41:32,039 --> 00:41:30,549
the website Robert it's been great

942
00:41:35,039 --> 00:41:32,049
having you on thanks for joining us

943
00:41:36,749 --> 00:41:35,049
thank you so much for having me thanks

944
00:41:38,729 --> 00:41:36,759
again to robert Parry for joining me

945
00:41:41,249 --> 00:41:38,739
today on skeptic oh you know there's a

946
00:41:43,620 --> 00:41:41,259
couple of questions that I'd pull out of

947
00:41:46,289 --> 00:41:43,630
this interview and ask for your response

948
00:41:48,900 --> 00:41:46,299
I love to hear your opinion on these the

949
00:41:50,939 --> 00:41:48,910
first has to do with synchronicity you

950
00:41:52,859 --> 00:41:50,949
know we've never talked about it on this

951
00:41:55,949 --> 00:41:52,869
show so perhaps it would be interesting

952
00:41:57,449 --> 00:41:55,959
to hear your experiences with it whether

953
00:42:00,089 --> 00:41:57,459
you think it's real whether you think

954
00:42:01,679 --> 00:42:00,099
it's a pattern matching brain kind of

955
00:42:04,079 --> 00:42:01,689
thing which it certainly is in some

956
00:42:05,969 --> 00:42:04,089
cases but is there any real nough stew

957
00:42:08,429 --> 00:42:05,979
it ever does it ever go beyond the

958
00:42:10,380 --> 00:42:08,439
normal to the paranormal and the second

959
00:42:12,089 --> 00:42:10,390
question i teed up has to do with this

960
00:42:13,949 --> 00:42:12,099
point that robert made at the end which

961
00:42:17,339 --> 00:42:13,959
i think is a fascinating point and that

962
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:17,349
is is there a bias against theories that

963
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:19,010
suggest this

964
00:42:23,170 --> 00:42:21,530
of God kind of phenomena and as Robert

965
00:42:25,420 --> 00:42:23,180
points out it doesn't always have to be

966
00:42:28,270 --> 00:42:25,430
God upon a cloud or anything like that

967
00:42:32,230 --> 00:42:28,280
but this idea that there may be these

968
00:42:34,300 --> 00:42:32,240
external non-physical influences that

969
00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:34,310
are directing our life in a certain way

970
00:42:40,720 --> 00:42:38,450
is there a built-in bias against even

971
00:42:42,070 --> 00:42:40,730
considering theories like that I think

972
00:42:44,140 --> 00:42:42,080
that's a really interesting point I'd

973
00:42:45,460 --> 00:42:44,150
love to hear your thoughts on it the way

974
00:42:47,950 --> 00:42:45,470
to share those thoughts are either

975
00:42:50,770 --> 00:42:47,960
through the skeptical forum on the

976
00:42:53,410 --> 00:42:50,780
website email to me Facebook to me all

977
00:42:57,730 --> 00:42:53,420
that stuff you can find at the skeptic

978
00:42:59,410 --> 00:42:57,740
Oh website it's at ske P tik Oh calm and

979
00:43:01,120 --> 00:42:59,420
there you'll also find links to all our

980
00:43:03,460 --> 00:43:01,130
previous shows so you can get caught up

981
00:43:06,670 --> 00:43:03,470
on all the back episodes of skeptic oh

982
00:43:08,500 --> 00:43:06,680
it's always so fun to get emails from

983
00:43:10,810 --> 00:43:08,510
people who say hey I just stumbled

984
00:43:12,670 --> 00:43:10,820
across the show and I found that there's

985
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:12,680
all these back episodes and I'm

986
00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:14,330
listening to them and you can kind of

987
00:43:19,000 --> 00:43:17,570
reacts perience them going through and

988
00:43:21,550 --> 00:43:19,010
going through the same journey that I've

989
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:21,560
been on over these four or five years

990
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:24,890
now in doing skeptic oh so if you are

991
00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:26,690
inclined to do that or you know someone

992
00:43:30,730 --> 00:43:28,430
who'd like to maybe listen to some of

993
00:43:32,080 --> 00:43:30,740
those old shows please tell them about

994
00:43:33,700 --> 00:43:32,090
it that's what they're there for

995
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:33,710
so with that I just want to let you know

996
00:43:37,330 --> 00:43:35,450
I have a number of shows coming up I'm

997
00:43:39,310 --> 00:43:37,340
gonna probably get be bringing them out

998
00:43:42,099 --> 00:43:39,320
every week for a while because I do have

999
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:42,109
several in the hopper and I need to get

1000
00:43:45,070 --> 00:43:43,850
caught up so I can do some more

1001
00:43:46,900 --> 00:43:45,080
interviews because I have so many

1002
00:43:49,270 --> 00:43:46,910
interviews out there that I want to do

1003
00:43:51,970 --> 00:43:49,280
so you might have to pick up your pace

1004
00:43:55,660 --> 00:43:51,980
of skeptical listening for awhile here